Wing paddle help

Paddling , Rolling , Rescues , Surfing
mattsema4
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Wing paddle help

Postby mattsema4 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:19 pm

I usually use a greenland paddle but over the last few months have been playing around with a wing paddle. It is an Epic small mid wing.
I have been pleased with the increased performance but just in the last few days have noticed a problem developing.
The issue is when paddling at an angle downwind in conditions of around 15 knots wind and seas around half a metre the inside blade "catches" and spins the paddle shaft in my hands.
I havent had this problem in flatter water or paddling upwind.
Hoping for some insight and help in solving this problem.

Matt

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allan
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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby allan » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:03 pm

If I understand your description correctly, you may have just described something that is almost inevitable with a feathered Euro or winged paddle, but is not a problem with a GP.

I'm not sure that it is a problem that can be solved.

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby mattsema4 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:41 pm

I think that the problem can be overcome with improved technique - probably like a lot of problems?
Given that nobody has made an input on this question I will place my observations and would like to hear what others think.
I went out tonight after work and conditions following yesterdays storm here were 1-1.5 metre confused sea, wind 10 knots.
Concentrating on torso rotation and careful depth of paddle I had no problems at all. I think that I may nave been too tense previously leading to reduced torso rotation and when paddling at an angle downwind I may have allowed the paddle to dig in too deep leading to a "catch" of the blade.
Speed may have also been a factor? Paddling downwind at a higher speed and not compensating with a faster stroke on the paddle increasing the tendency to "catch".
Anyway the problem seemed ok tonight and I had a great fun paddle.
Would appreciate others thoughts,

Matt

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby Redback » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:39 pm

Hi Matt,

Used with proper technique, a good wing paddle will not "catch" regardless of conditions and "catching" is certainly not "inevitable".

It's important that you rotate your body past the blade in the water, and allow it to move away from the boat while you continue to accelerate the blade until it's out of the water.

Most people I've seen who experience the "catching" issue are pulling the blade with their bicep (parallel to the boat), rather than using body rotation to do the work.

If you let the blade follow its natural path (outside the wake-line of the craft) it will generate forward lift (thrust) and almost "eject" itself from the water.

The linked video below is an example of what I mean taken from a friend's boat (I'm on the right) in conditions not dissimilar to what you described.

No problems with "catching", despite the lumpy conditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDrSylAlz04

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby mattsema4 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Thanks Redback,

I thought it was a technique issue. The greenland paddle is very forgiving as it can be used low angle or high angle and the wing paddle clearly is most efficient when used with a more technical approach.
As I said after using more torso rotation the problem is largely eliminated - I do notice however if I dont use a correct technique that the problem can resurface. The other aspect that I didnt mention was concentrating on a high angle stroke.
The video is great, thanks for sharing!
I know speaking with other paddlers that this is a problem that is fairly common.
It would be good for other experienced paddlers to share their thoughts....

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby mattsema4 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:20 pm

:roll: For those that may be interested or who may have been struggling with similar issues.
Since my initial post and more practice the problem of paddle "spin" has been eliminated.
The solution - 1.high angle stroke
2.torso rotation
3.making sure paddle exit from the water is near hip level
4.assertive or confident paddle strokes in downwind conditions

The more I use a wing paddle the more I like it. It gives a very solid "grip" in the water and I am sure is more efficient than other paddles....but, I find a greenland paddle is still kinder on the body over distances. Maybe a sign of age related issues? :roll:

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby Boatsie » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:29 pm

Wing paddles are excellent in undisturbed water. I'm ignorant of ability in real conditions such as white cap bay.
Having previously been taught: keep face clean. Much like Outback; dish washing liquid is an excellent replacement as brake fluid yet will compress more hence lose a bit more master to slave cylinder efficiency.
Anyway, on flat water we were taught to concentrate upon catch, legs, torso, arms in that order.

If racing, check with coach; he/she knows better.
Catch; no spray perfect, forward back blade better then spray back because disturbed portion of catch isn't compression portion.
Legs. Use them. Tense or push kick boat with side that is wet. As a human this will naturally open energy channel that torques your body wet ways.
Torso. After legs go with it.
Arms. Guide of where propulsion is; they don't do as much effort as legs.

Hope it helps, wondering if any of you guys know of knot free wood in Adelaide. I'm going backwards Matt. Best of luck

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby Boatsie » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:11 pm

The issue is when paddling at an angle downwind in conditions of around 15 knots wind and seas around half a metre the inside blade "catches" and spins the paddle shaft in my hands.

The wing cup is an aggressive style.
Reads like a pressure system.
High to low.
When running the higher pressure near the hull was significantly more so than the propulsion pressure ( hard to easy oar down aye).

Glad to read you sorted it.

Since my initial post and more practice the problem of paddle "spin" has been eliminated.
The solution - 1.high angle stroke
2.torso rotation
3.making sure paddle exit from the water is near hip level
4.assertive or confident paddle strokes in downwind conditions

Those type paddles are needy of aggression. When pulling a stroke they require much more power yet with more efficiency of shape, they become more like a drag engine, on or up.
I guess they whom use are lazy, eg less rpm.
Gliders.
I guess they whom use them hit hard and fast during the stroke.
That's why most people who know better than I don't recommend them to beginners or travelers risking fatigue without near landings.
Flick quick stix

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby Boatsie » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:43 pm

I wrote pressure backwards. My not so good.
Displacement hull leaves a null hence such higher volume low pressure at where hull was requiring filling in.
Even physics loves wings.
Imagine if an Eskimo had a wing set, his mates are here yelling, ' here comes scoop a poop, ' having to survive laden, blood scented and tired.

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby mattsema4 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:59 pm

Thanks Nathan,

Enjoying your contributions to the forum. Always entertaining!
Re your comments regarding wing paddle leading to fatigue over distance I think there is enough evidence that efficiency by definition is more output from less effort.
Refer to Freya Hofmeister and her circumnavigation of Australia - used a wing paddle.
Personally a group of local paddlers and myself did a crossing of Gulf St Vincent covering the 36Km in 4 hours with a number of stops along the way.
While I love the greenland paddle I recognise the efficiency benefits of a wing - less strokes to cover the same distance. You cant argue with that.

Happy paddling Nathan and keep up your contributions.

Hope to see you on the water one day!

Matt

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby Boatsie » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:04 pm

Cheers Matt,
That's impressive; 4 hrs.
I wrong English often, like you, more efficient, easier distance, etc. Just when tired, eg a hunter hanging around, out there long time, etc doesn't safety as well as a flat stick.

Ain't seen salt for a year I guess, maybe 2. Just memory of sticks is lots of concentration wing compared with touring blade. I doubt my ability can afford to utilize a set of wing blades. Freya Hofmeister is a champion like your self. Lots of practice , lots of play.
I'm still bored but I'm pretty stoked to be out there soon.

I just wondering,,, r u old mate Matt that never returned my fibre glass paddle?
:lol:

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby mattsema4 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:55 pm

Not me Nathan,

My philosophy is dont loan or borrow equipment from others. If in the rare case it does occur then you break it or lose it then you replace it!

I will keep an eye out for my namesake paddling with an old fibre glass paddle!

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby Boatsie » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:33 am

Lol. He's an awesome bloke.
I was wondering, can wing paddles be used as rudders? I always thought them as none trailers

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby Boatsie » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:22 am

Don't mean to be retarded, just often I am. Was a sponsored racer 29 years ago. Different shape of wing back then, same law of water.
I was taught to get a clean catch. Apply much pressure. Snap the release or suffer a hydraulic snag. Forward efficient blade.
That all I know

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Re: Wing paddle help

Postby Boatsie » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:32 pm



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