why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby gsimson » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:22 pm

Gee Peter,
I didn't realise I was holding you up so much. I'll try harder next time OK?

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby mushinaiki » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:58 pm

Not talking about you mate...... you have a faster boat and a wing paddle!!!!!!!

Just wanted to have my say about the physical reasons that high angle is the easiest on the body once you can teach yourself to do it. I agree with Shroeds that most people will not relax the upper arm enough and so find a high angle tiring and quit.
Even in high winds physiologically you have more power with a high paddle angle.
Enjoyed the paddle on Sunday mate, catch you on the water soon.

Peter

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Kayaker Greg » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:45 am

mushinaiki wrote:Low angle paddling tends to load up the AC joint in the shoulder. The reason for this is that using no or little body rotation causes you to use the muscles in the front of the arm. These muscles are connected to the pectoral muscles in the chest, and connected no further. High angle paddler use there triceps muscles in the arm which are connected to the back of the shoulder then all the way down the back to the pelvis which are connected to the legs which should be driving off the foot pegs.
Peter


This is exactly what happened to me when I switched from a Wing to a GP for 3-4 months exclusively last year. Shoulder pain extended to neck pain then back pain. I also got sore arms. I persevered with the GP thinking that because the Wing has so much more grip in the water that it would be worse for my shoulder, then one day after struggling to keep up with my friend in windy conditions I decided to try the Wing again and had very little shoulder pain as long as my technique is good. A year later I still feel a bit of pain in the shoulder if my technique slips a little. After attending a Canoe Racing NZ development camp and getting some good tuition on the correct technique my shoulder no longer is an issue when paddling and is almost back to 100%. I still use the GP on shorter cruise trips with groups cause the pace is to slow for the Wing. I can paddle very efficiently with the Wing, covering 70km with one break a few months back in about 8 hours. With the GP I would not have had enough energy or daylight for this trip.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby mick M » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:28 am

With the Gp, your not limited to a low angal stroke, try a high angel with it, It wont acelarate like a uro but it will cruse at an exceptabel speed, once you get the cant right and get into your head that your lifting the blade through the water and not puling the blade through the water . after 15 years of sea kayaking iv finaly goten my head around a few things , 85% of sea kayakers have a pore or non existent forword stroke, if you wont a good forword stroke get coching from a diferant disaplen, flat water racing , marathon or the best iv found is ski racing , change your siting position, if you can adopt a more legs together posture , iv gon as fare as ghanging my foot pegs to a foot bed or plate so I can drive of my feet properlyif iv got my legs splayed out old stile or white water stile im in good contact with my boat but loosing power through my body, shore in demanding conditions you need to lock in again so you can through your boat around and role up ect....... but to get the miled down look more at your posture/siting /legg position as well and also get a good paddel ,which fits properly and isent to heavy to swing , every gram has to be mooved through the water wether its your boat or your paddel

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Kayaker Greg » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:31 am

I agree Mick and I've put foot plates in both my sea kayaks so that I can paddle with heel pressure and legs together for good leg and hip drive. And from what I've seen, more than 85% of sea kayakers here in NZ have poor forward stroke, I'd go as far as to say 99%.

It was actually the lifting part of the stroke that gave me sore arms with the GP, trying to get that little bit more speed out of it.

With the Wing, the catch and first few inches is where the most power is made and most easily, using the straight arm, the leg drive and hip movement, solid core to transmit the power up through the body and the bulk of rotation comes from the upper thoracic spine, not the lumbar as I used to believe. The only rotation below the T spine is the movement of the hips in the seat, the lumbar stays solid in relation to the hips.

Multi Olympian Gold Medalist Ian Ferguson told me that it takes his son Steven Ferguson who is 6'5" and has arm span 20cm larger than his height, 35kg of force to move a K1 at race pace. The greatest force generated is at the catch, by the feet, by the time the paddle has reached the hips only 6kg of force can be generated.

The low angle stroke with a GP already starts at a disadvantage due to the paddle placement in the water, its in a weaker start position. Sure the GP has its fans, all power to them, but if you want efficiency, speed and power, you can't go past the high angle wing stroke. I know thats not what is important to many, and I do enjoy using a GP at times.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby haresfur » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:30 pm

Kayaker Greg wrote:The low angle stroke with a GP already starts at a disadvantage due to the paddle placement in the water, its in a weaker start position. Sure the GP has its fans, all power to them, but if you want efficiency, speed and power, you can't go past the high angle wing stroke. I know thats not what is important to many, and I do enjoy using a GP at times.


It is a misconception that a GP stroke is or has to be a low angle stroke. Check out the racing videos on the QAJAQUSA website. I wouldn't say I have a supurb forward stroke but a GP isn't to blame for that.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Kayaker Greg » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:00 pm

Yes I'm aware that the GP can be used high or low angle and I will use both when using a GP, one of the aspects I enjoy when using a GP. The question is why are you a low or high angle paddler? I answered the reasons for myself.
I certainly wouldn't use a Wing if I was a low angle paddler, and I certainly wouldn't use a GP on my racing Ocean Ski, I would soon be swimming. You can't deny the catch is more powerful when using a Wing, everyone accepts that the acceleration or power per stroke is less with a GP, doubt you would get anywhere near 35kg of force anywhere in the stroke, high or low. That's why I am a high angle paddler and use a Wing. But occasionally use a GP for something different, like paddling to the pub. I also carry a GP as a spare paddle.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby JohnA » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:08 am

Call me picky but from a marketing perspective I think they'd get a better result if their spam was in English. However if you want a russian, porn video, or an adult dating service in Novokuznetsk among other things then these are your guys. Not a damn thing about kayaks though.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Gray Raider » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:48 am

Could be relevant should one plan a trip to Novokuznetsk and require such services...

GR

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Gray Raider » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:31 pm

I think he may have answered our concerns..

Is there anything in there about discounts for forum members ......? :D

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Gray Raider » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:58 am

mmmmmm......I see

admin people, can we block this clown?

GR

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby JohnA » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:03 am

It would be nice GR, sadly I suspect it's going to be a continuing problem unless we do something further to filter membership. I'd say that this is a good example of an automated post by a forum spambot as the more sophisticated spammers are coming up with ways to crack the antispam defences. The CAPTCHA tests (with the distorted word images) are no longer a reliable means of preventing automated posting due to improvements in optical character recognition programs and the use of cheap human labour in third world countries who will solve captcha tests for less than a dollar per thousand. Spammers who also have high traffic web sites (such as porn sites) will also create a database of captcha images which they then put up as authentication on their own site and the punters cheerfully solve them for free allowing the spambots to incorporate a solutions database to existing captcha puzzles.

Perhaps we need to put in an authentication step involving a questionaire where they have to fill in a profile questionaire with information on their paddling experience, where they're from, what is the water temperature where they paddle, type of boat and so on. That should make it fairly easy to tell who is a genuine paddler and who isn't. An FAQ section for those common questions such as "what boat should I buy ?", "What paddle should I buy ?" could be useful too.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Grumpy » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:21 pm

90% of the time I am a low angle paddler. I use the high angle when need acceleration for short distances. I have a damaged shoulder (rotator cuff) and with the low angle I can maintain a decent pace for longer time than with the high angle.

To ease the strain on the shoulder I use a Nimbus Chinook paddle with a long and narrow blade (11.5 x 65 cm) when not using a Greenland paddle.

I find the low angle stroke to be quite useful in rough cinditions especially if the top of the blade is angled slight back thus adding a slight brace to the stoke.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby diemonde » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:34 pm

@JohnA, there are some webhosts who have more effective filtering in place. It sometimes blocks regular posts, but most of the time it just blocks posts with adult content, gambling, etc. The software I know off even gives you the possibility to just plain block off countries. So than it is sorry Russian paddlers: but first shoot off those spambots in your country.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby owenw » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:18 pm

I always start off with a beautiful high angle stroke - but as the miles increase, the angle decreases.
Life truly lived is full of risk; to fence out risk is to fence out life itself.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Kayaker Greg » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:29 am

Paddled to the pub last night on the first of our summer wed night paddles, took the GP for the first time since last summer, enabled me to paddle with the group but my wrists, arms and back are a bit sore using different muscles to the wing, despite trying to emulate a wing stroke. With the wing the paddle naturally moves to the side due to the twist in the blades, with the GP I was overloading the shoulder trying to get the GP out to the side when using high angle. Usually paddle four times a week in the ski with a wing. But the GP lets you arrive at the pub drier than with the wing.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Mac50L » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:31 pm

So Greg, you do use a high stroke and straight arms with the GP? If I want speed I do - high stroke, straight arms and work the GP like a wing.

Alex

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Kayaker Greg » Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:17 am

Yes, I tried the high stroke, its the stroke I use the most, wasn't looking for speed as it was my rest night so I don't regard it as a paddling day when I use the GP, perhaps more like cross training and being social. Not with arms locked but you could perhaps call arms straight, say 120 degrees or more. I've been having coaching technique sessions with Olympic paddler Mike Walker on the wing, it was when trying the same technique with the GP that the shoulder was over loading, just because as I said the wing moves out to the side naturally on its own accord due to the twist in the blade, with the GP you need to guide it and its not strong moving the paddle out and strains the shoulder, in fact its a move that we were told at a Canoe Racing NZ development camp not to do during exercises due to the strain by the strength and conditioning coach, the wing does the move for you. A high stroke could still be used, but a high stroke does not mean it is a good wing stroke. Off course there are different ways to use a wing as per a GP, punching out with the top hand with the GP is easier than Mikes technique which does not involve punching out like many coaches advocate and many paddlers do. That's another story as to the bio mechanical reasons for that.
But you have had a lot more experience using a GP than me and I concede that my GP stroke may well be inferior, it takes years of practice to develop a good wing stroke, no reason the GP should be any different. For now, I'm more concerned with developing a good wing stroke, GP is for my social paddles.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby baily » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:42 pm

A very important factor here is what kind of paddle you're using. Wing blades are designed for a high (ie aggressive) stroke.

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Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Mac50L » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:12 am

baily wrote:A very important factor here is what kind of paddle you're using. Wing blades are designed for a high (ie aggressive) stroke.

I would say "what length?", not "what type?". Long or too long and you are stuck with low angle. Short or shorter and you can use an efficient, high stroke.


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