why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Paddling , Rolling , Rescues , Surfing
User avatar
Raider
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:55 pm
KAYAK: Epic 18 X Sport Ultra - Seaward Passat G3 - Tempest 170 Pro - Rosco SR
Location: Brisbane Queensland Austr
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Raider » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:00 pm

High angle with my Ikelos on a day paddle in an empty boat and low angle with my Cypress when I want to crank out the miles in a loaded boat. (The Ikelos takes too big a bite for we old farts). However, I find I have better rotation with the high angle, probably because I use that more.

That's my tuppence worth

Raider

Mac50L
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:31 pm
KAYAK: Mac50L
Location: Canterbury, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Mac50L » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:28 pm

I'd agree with everything FatPaddler said and that's what I do, high for speed and lowering as it gets more cruisey and you don't want to leave the Euro paddlers behind. A low decked, narrow kayak helps for low strokes and when waiting and at rest the GP makes a good outrigger with all the buoyancy it has. Bits of synthetic carbon are useless for that.

Sandy

User avatar
gnarlydog
Posts: 1182
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:09 pm
KAYAK: skegged kayaks (6) with traditional paddles
Location: South East Queensland
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby gnarlydog » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:45 pm

Mac50L wrote: Bits of synthetic carbon are useless for that.

What do you mean? ... I found them to be as good as the "kindlings" variety :-)
More on the "useless" carbon: http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com/2010/ ... hwarz.html

Mac50L
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:31 pm
KAYAK: Mac50L
Location: Canterbury, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Mac50L » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:09 pm

Wood floats and acts as like a paddle float and try to brew a cup of tea by burning a carbonfibre paddle - useless.

Sandy

Kels
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:55 am
KAYAK: Nautiraid Greenlander, SOF Tyak and Boreal Ellesmere
Location: Pymble
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Kels » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:43 pm

Low, just 'cause I'm lazy...

Well, acutally I started out paddling with a really good high angle technique but a knob of an instructor ruined it by forcing me to lower the angle. His idiotic theory was that high angle stroke was unsuitable for the ocean... "you're paddling like a flatwater race guy, you wont be able to brace in waves". I will never forgive that guy.

Cheers,

Adam

User avatar
TomN
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 1:31 pm
KAYAK: 1931 Disco Bay SOF, F1 SOF, Impex Assateague, Anago SOF, Ocean Raider (somewhere out the back)
Location: Emerald Beach, NSW
Location: Emerald Beach, NSW
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby TomN » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:01 pm

Kels wrote:Low, just 'cause I'm lazy...

Well, acutally I started out paddling with a really good high angle technique but a knob of an instructor ruined it by forcing me to lower the angle. His idiotic theory was that high angle stroke was unsuitable for the ocean... "you're paddling like a flatwater race guy, you wont be able to brace in waves". I will never forgive that guy.

Cheers,

Adam


Its all that dann instructors fault :) Thats my excuse for stiching wiggly seams in the skins of my boats.... I met this bloke once who said 'Its only a skin boat' and now all I can do is bang them together and get them out of the shed and onto the water fast. My attention to detail has dropped about 6 notches.

User avatar
Geoff
Posts: 696
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:35 pm
KAYAK: Rockpool Taran 18,Rockpool GT, Rockpool Alaw Bach, SeaKayakingUK Explorer HV
Location: Southern Tasmania
Location: Southern Tasmania
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Geoff » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:16 am

Rather than high angle or low angle maybe we should ask ourselves what is the most efficient stroke? I believe racing paddlers use the most efficient stroke and not a lot of them use low angle :-) If you are long distance paddling being efficient means using less effort which in turn means travelling further more easily. I recently went for a little paddle and I found that if I was feeling tired, concentrating on full rotation and a good high angle stroke improved things markedly.
Geoff

User avatar
gsimson
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:02 am
KAYAK: Cetus,Taran, Delphin, Firestar, SOF Disko Bay, Shearwater 16, Fenn ski
Location: Hobart , Tas
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby gsimson » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:35 am

Geoff wrote:Rather than high angle or low angle maybe we should ask ourselves what is the most efficient stroke? I believe racing paddlers use the most efficient stroke and not a lot of them use low angle :-) If you are long distance paddling being efficient means using less effort which in turn means travelling further more easily. I recently went for a little paddle and I found that if I was feeling tired, concentrating on full rotation and a good high angle stroke improved things markedly.
Geoff


That's funny 'cause normally I'm a high angle stroker (and high rate :lol: ) but on this same trip couldn't be stuffed and ended up doing a lot of low angle (with my wing).

User avatar
Raider
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:55 pm
KAYAK: Epic 18 X Sport Ultra - Seaward Passat G3 - Tempest 170 Pro - Rosco SR
Location: Brisbane Queensland Austr
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Raider » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:55 pm

Interesting comments from both of you Boys.

We did a trip last year in a much warmer climate than you guys did and we had a mix of paddles . The one who ran out of steam first was the only one with a wing paddle who also happened to be the youngest and fittest, followed closely by a Werner Ikelos. Both times we did 40k days.

I can relate to the Ikelos in a loaded boat because I have tried it. I get my best result from my Cypress when I have to crank out the k's and rotation and high angle definitely helps me. It doesn't take such a big bite and allows better cadence without losing hull speed. I think the same could apply to the wing in that it is so efficient and takes more energy to drive it.

Having said all of that it still gets back to whatever works for you doesn't it? :)
Raider

Kels
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:55 am
KAYAK: Nautiraid Greenlander, SOF Tyak and Boreal Ellesmere
Location: Pymble
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Kels » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:14 pm

TomN wrote:Its all that dann instructors fault :) Thats my excuse for stiching wiggly seams in the skins of my boats.... I met this bloke once who said 'Its only a skin boat' and now all I can do is bang them together and get them out of the shed and onto the water fast. My attention to detail has dropped about 6 notches.


Ha! I know, right? I've been sitting on a bit of old foam mat for over a year (uncomfortable as hell) just because "its only a skin boat"...

Back on the paddling - I went out yesterday with full intent to keep my paddle high... no dice...

User avatar
JohnA
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:48 am
KAYAK: Australis Gecko, Valley Nordkapp RM.
Location: NSW Central Coast
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby JohnA » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:03 pm

Raider wrote:The one who ran out of steam first was the only one with a wing paddle who also happened to be the youngest and fittest, followed closely by a Werner Ikelos.
Raider


Hi Raider, interesting observation and I guess there are wings of different sizes too. A wing with a big area and a strong bite would wear me out pretty quickly. I have a mid sized wing which I'm still getting used to it so I can't really comment on how tiring I find it yet but I definitely get along faster with it. I like it a lot. Love my Werner Cyprus too.

I suspect that the key to it is the paddler as much as the paddle. Youngest and fittest can also mean least experienced and there's a lot of finesse in the forward stroke. In my experience, the older, wilier, more experienced guys with good technique tend to go pretty well regardless of what bit of kit is in their hands and they often mix it up to suit the conditions but always have good rotation at the heart of the stroke.

I picked up a little gem while watching a forward stroke clinic the other day. I was sitting out as I was a bit sore behind one shoulder. One of the instructors observed to another paddler that he wasn't setting his shoulder before the start of the stroke which meant he was pulling his shoulder blade back under full load, loading up the small muscles and making them work harder. It was a light bulb moment for me as that's the first spot to go for me (funnily enough only on the right side). Such a small thing, but then the forward stroke seems to me to be made up of a gazillion small things that all need to work together....

User avatar
Raider
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:55 pm
KAYAK: Epic 18 X Sport Ultra - Seaward Passat G3 - Tempest 170 Pro - Rosco SR
Location: Brisbane Queensland Austr
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Raider » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:50 pm

Hi JohnA,

I think you have pretty much covered it. The person with the wing used a mid sized one but was small and light and more used to whitewater than touring in a loaded boat so that could account for some of the problem. The Ikelos paddler was an old fart like me and after the trip he bought a Cypress as well.

That's an interesting point that you brought up about the shoulder. I tend to end up with a sore shoulder on one side after a big one chasing the younger blokes over a decent distance at the top end of my cruising pace. I will pay more attention to that next time and see if I can identify similar behaviour. I don't think I could justify using the term 'finesse' when describing my forward stroke.

I also think that one must be more technically correct with the wing as it is a little less forgiving. I still get back to my last statement... Whatever works for you.

Raider

User avatar
JohnA
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:48 am
KAYAK: Australis Gecko, Valley Nordkapp RM.
Location: NSW Central Coast
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby JohnA » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:33 am

Definitely Raider, we're all going to do it slightly differently, especially with a few niggling old injuries as time goes by. If it works for you and has good rotation, then more strength to your paddling arm I say, and legs, back etc of course :)

User avatar
Random
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:25 am
KAYAK: Tahe Wind 585
Location: GREECE EU
Location: Greece EU
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Random » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:21 am

The truth is somewhere in the middle...Last weekend i paddled 30 nautical miles for approximately 11 hours only with one stop of 30 min or so..I believe that when you re out in the open sea with different waves and winds a combination of low and high angle is used..High and low paddling has each of them pros and cons...The truth is that when you struggle to cover a distance you ll do anything in order to reach your destination...Absolut teqnique is required when you want to achieve a specific goal..eg. a proffesional athlete needs only the high angle style of paddling...So I strongly believe that in most cases there is no high or low angle paddler... 8-) :mrgreen:
Leave it to Random to needlessly complicated things

User avatar
schroeds
Posts: 592
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:35 pm
KAYAK: The mighty Raider X, Red 7 Pro racing ski
Location: That sunny place Sydney
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby schroeds » Thu May 05, 2011 8:08 pm

My 5 cents:

1. look at the top finishers (even the top half of the field) in any kayak race from K1 sprints to Ocean Series races or the Hawkesbury. All high angle. (and all wing blades).

2. Low angle allows/encourages the top hand to push the paddle forward in a biomechanically weak position...probably the source of the injuries mentioned above. A high angle especially combined with a relaxed, dropped top elbow, helps to force rotation. It also requires clean entry and exit to perform properly.

guess you can tell which way I lean on this one :roll:

User avatar
JohnA
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:48 am
KAYAK: Australis Gecko, Valley Nordkapp RM.
Location: NSW Central Coast
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby JohnA » Fri May 06, 2011 8:02 pm

Random wrote:Last weekend i paddled 30 nautical miles for approximately 11 hours only with one stop of 30 min or so


I need to work on my forward stroke technique too. :(

Paddle Dog 52
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:32 am
KAYAK: Current Designs / Solstice GT, Nomad, Extreme HV, Libra XT tandem.
Location: NY
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Paddle Dog 52 » Mon May 30, 2011 12:21 pm

Why not both? Just starting but I hope to get a Ikelos and a Kallsite for different missions. Even on the same day I may want to swap from high to low depending on conditions and how tire I get. Yes, no? I don't mind doing either and I am trying to do both now correctly. Little coaching to come soon. Right now I have a 220 Shuna I got when I bought the boat used. Seems a tad long for high angle for me 215 may be better. Probably get the Kalliste first the the Ikelos. Hoping my GF will get a Kalliste with her new boat. Then I will just get a the Ikelos because she don't go all the time and won't go on the longer paddles of over 10-12 miles. Thanks for any opinions/.

john

User avatar
JohnA
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:48 am
KAYAK: Australis Gecko, Valley Nordkapp RM.
Location: NSW Central Coast
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby JohnA » Mon May 30, 2011 3:46 pm

Hi John,

if want speed then go with a wing it'll push you along faster than the Ikelos. You will just have to compromise on some of the technical strokes that don't work well with them. If you're touring, the Ikelos is a bit big for all but the strongest paddlers although they're great for surf and play. A Cyprus or Shuna (same shape less area) used at a higher cadence will be less wear and tear on your body over distance. Try the Werner web site for length recommendations, they have an online tool for recommending paddle length.

For resting muscles, I think for a low angle option a Greenland Paddle is worth considering as the whole paddling action is different from the grip on the paddle and lack of feathering right through the stroke, so a more complete change of musculature than going from a high angle euro to a low angle one. Fun for rolling too and you can cook dinner over it if all else fails :)

Paddle Dog 52
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:32 am
KAYAK: Current Designs / Solstice GT, Nomad, Extreme HV, Libra XT tandem.
Location: NY
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby Paddle Dog 52 » Mon May 30, 2011 10:18 pm

I have a Shuna now but it seems small. I have been to the Werner paddle recommendations. I did demo a Ikelos which is nice. I just put my GF in the werner site and she could use the Kalliste or the Athena. Hoping she likes the Kalliste so I can buy the Ikelos and then use the Kalliste for a long tour of 15 miles or more. She has gone 10-12 miles on SOT so she may go further in a Eddyline Journey with a good paddle. I am not a body builder but I have a commercial masonry business and love working when I can for exercise. I am 58 but can still pick and set 12,000-even 15,000 lb. of block in a day. I mean you set it down easy in the mortar so it is not like tossing them down after picking them up. I can't do that day after day but for a few days yes and may be a bit less regularly. I think it has given me good start for paddling. I do feel a day of hard fast paddling for the first 2 hours the next day or till I hit the shower. My friend is 130 lb. and paddles real good in is CD Oracle so we battle it out all the time. I have to maintain a faster cadence with my Shuna and having a wider Solstice and 80 more lb. on my body to drag through the water.

I do want to try a GP paddle I saw some at a show and they were about 200 USD + - which is not bad. Dealer by me has none to try. I would have to drive a good bit to a dealer who does have them but I could make a trip out of it form NY to NJ for a day.

mushinaiki
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:37 pm
KAYAK: North Shore Atlantic, Nordkapp
Location: Southern Tassie
Contact:

Re: why are YOU a low or high angle paddler?

Postby mushinaiki » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:49 am

Low angle paddling tends to load up the AC joint in the shoulder. The reason for this is that using no or little body rotation causes you to use the muscles in the front of the arm. These muscles are connected to the pectoral muscles in the chest, and connected no further. High angle paddler use there triceps muscles in the arm which are connected to the back of the shoulder then all the way down the back to the pelvis which are connected to the legs which should be driving off the foot pegs.
I have been teaching body dynamics for half my life and the amount of people that use the bicept/pec combo far outweigh the latter. My teacher says it has to do with the animal brain and the body has to be taught the opposite, and most people in my experience dont have the patience to persist to teach there body beyond the instinctual animal activity of the brain........

Guess you know how I paddle, and by the way I have a separated left AC joint and have had for 6 years, it only hurts when i paddle low angle, usually to slow down for others to keep up - even over long distances, which I am sure can be confirmed by the guys in Tassie that have paddled with me. I use a mitchel bombora cranc, not a wing, although I have one for flat water paddles.

Also as a former AIS athlete I can assure you that the boffins there would have worked out the perfect way for effortless power, hence olympic paddlers all high anglers

peace

Peter


Return to “TECHNIQUE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest