Cheap imports

Design , Outfitting , Skegs , Rudders, Pumps , Sails , Modifications
Camanche73
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Cheap imports

Postby Camanche73 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:52 pm

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.vi ... ID=EBAY-AU

I know it's not a great looking boat, but maybe these type of things will see growth in our sport? ( by the way, I'm not marketing them, just couldn't believe the price things are imported for!)

ConYak
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby ConYak » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:49 am

Or knock around the second hand market...
Good judgement comes from experience~and experience well that comes from poor judgement

johnbalogh9
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby johnbalogh9 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:26 pm

I find it hard to believe that these kayaks are quality. It is acceptable for kayaks on sale and even then the brand has to be good to actually purchase one. And btw, this will actually hamper the growth in our sport.

Camanche73
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Camanche73 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:11 pm

johnbalogh9 wrote:I find it hard to believe that these kayaks are quality. It is acceptable for kayaks on sale and even then the brand has to be good to actually purchase one. And btw, this will actually hamper the growth in our sport.

Like those 'dragon' kayaks?

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Megan
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Megan » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:41 am

Without deck perimeter lines an assisted rescue, or even a cowboy style self-rescue, at sea, would be very difficult. It is like handling a fish. The gear bungies just stretch. I have found it harder to handle sea kayaks with all round stretchy loose decklines and that was in calm conditions. It maybe OK for calm sheltered waters where you can swim to shore. The front carry handle position doesn't seem to be in a good position to have an assisted rescue where the swimmer helps to drag the kayak up to help drain the water out.
Cheers
Megan

johnbalogh9
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby johnbalogh9 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:47 pm

Camanche73 wrote:
johnbalogh9 wrote:I find it hard to believe that these kayaks are quality. It is acceptable for kayaks on sale and even then the brand has to be good to actually purchase one. And btw, this will actually hamper the growth in our sport.

Like those 'dragon' kayaks?

Dragon kayak is my preference and I enjoy paddling in it. You were asking for a opinion and you got that.

Camanche73
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Camanche73 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:35 pm

Dragon kayak is my preference and I enjoy paddling in it. You were asking for a opinion and you got that.[/quote]

That's because you are either the manufacturer or distributor for them. It should be mandatory for any member in here who has an affiliation with a commercial paddling product to clearly define so in a signature block at the bottom of posts. I know some users already do, but it should be applied to all.

Simonl
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Simonl » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:19 am

I notice Annaconda have a fibreglass/kevlar version of their seabird brand of kayaks. It's on special for $1600 and It looks "reasonable" (not that I'm an expert on fibreglass kayaks as I still have my first kayak which is plastic) but as Megan pointed out, it too does not have perimeter deck lines. If such a simple but important feature as this has been overlooked, it's easy to assume that other important design features have also been overlooked. The biggest issue is that many people who buy stuff like that from Anaconda are usually just starting out so they wouldn't have an appreciation for what to look for or what's important. To the unsuspecting eye these kayaks look nice, shinny and well made and a good price. I think I would rather save my money and buy a quality known brand kayak. Or, even better join a club like VSKC and soak up the experience/knowledge from others before buying.

Simon

Camanche73
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Camanche73 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:21 pm

I see the point, but even $1600 is a lot of money to some people. If it was going to take me 2 years to save $1600, I could gain a huge amount of experience paddling a lesser craft in that same 2 years. And although decklines are very important, they are just rope. Anybody with a drill can fit deck lines to a kayak

Simonl
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Simonl » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:36 am

Certainly. $1600 would be alot of money to most people, me included. Thats why I'd hate to spend it on a POS.

One of the best ways to learn about kayaking especially when you first start out is to join a club. As a member of the VSKC, one of the requirements of a members kayak is to have 6mm full perimeter deck lines. So, if you spent $1600 of your hard earnt money and one of the first things you have to do is drill more than 1/2 dozen holes through the deck/hull of your substandard kayak that you are now stuck with because you can't afford to replace it.

I jus think that if you are going to design a kayak, how hard is it to build into the design a basic safety item such as deck lines. If a designer/manufacturer can't get that right then what other things have they got wrong?

Simon

Mac50L
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Mac50L » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:51 am

Camanche73 wrote:I see the point, but even $1600 is a lot of money to some people. If it was going to take me 2 years to save $1600, I could gain a huge amount of experience paddling a lesser craft in that same 2 years.

So for 1/3 of that amount you build one.

Then you build another 2 or 3 because you can. You also make your own paddles to a far higher standard than commercial ones. Skill level? As long as you can sew (maybe) and mix pancakes, that's enough skill. Admittedly you need to pick a good design without complexities.

I can afford to go out and buy an expensive kayak any time. Would I ? NO, I want quality, not commercial standard. Paddles? OK, a problem there, how do you stop making them? Is a dozen enough?

Camanche73
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Camanche73 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:51 pm

I agree Mac,
That's why 2 out of my 3 boats I have built myself.
I'm also a member of the VSKC, but people I know who want to get into paddling look at the VSKC site, which states people need to know something about kayaking, and have access to a kayak.
This is putting people off the sport, as they think 'how much should I know and where can I get a kayak?'
We are already involved in the culture, but new comers don't know where to start, and are put off by the high initial out lay, and the need to know something before joining a club.
We should look at ways to increase our sports exposure, which would increase sales in boats, and would make Aussie made kayaks more viable again.
It's a vicious circle.

Bruce D
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Bruce D » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:08 pm

Having people start paddling through commerical providers is a better deal, they get to try the sport without having to outlay the thousands of dollars require to purchase a Kayak and the miminum equipment to paddle safely, once they are committed to the sport (ie prepared to purchase a suit Kayak and safety equipment), then clubs are great for them.

Would you lend one of your boat to a beginners every few weeks to get them into the sport ? I wouldn't.

I've been a member of clubs (other sports not paddling) where we hired the basic equipment and trained people in that sport. As a club they were always was out of pocket and never saw a return on the cost of equipment and rarely did those who were train by the club for free, remained in the sport for very long.

Have a look at SCUBA diving, there is virtually no club base training or certification left in Australia (there might be a few BSAC clubs left) yet the cost of equipment is similar.

Its a very big cost to club in buying suitable Kayaks to hire or loan to newbee and maintaining them (storage, safety equipment, etc, etc) is not something most Sea Kayaking clubs would have the resources to do, its far easier to leave it to a commerical provider.

Bruce D

Mac50L
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Mac50L » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:05 pm

You do get odd characters around here. I wanted to go somewhere (D'Urville Island), decided I couldn't afford a 30'-40' yacht so a kayak would be the way to get there. I build a couple, one for my daughter, one for me. Then set about teaching myself the game. Did the trip about 2 years after I'd finished building my kayak.

About 4 years after the first kayaks, I ran a building class and we built 4 to my design, a little bigger than the first ones. A few years later I decided a double might be handy, designed, built and paddled it and was then offered a trip to Fiji with it, a circumnavigation of Vanua Levu. It was proved to be a far more seaworthy design than that by a professional designer in this country, during one trip where mine simply carried on and the other was blown over and had to be rescued. Paddling skill was not an issue.

My partner built the first of the present design (stand on these scales, stand beside this tape measure, cut along the dotted line sort of thing). In the meantime a couple more designs, one tortured ply, the other a slim version of the standard design.

What's it all mean? If you want something go for it. Not the, "I don't know if I want to get involved." sort of thing.

Camanche73
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Camanche73 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:38 am

All relevant points, but I think these are some of the issues as to why our sport doesn't seem to be growing. It's also seen as a sport for 'older' participants. Of course there are exceptions, but as a sport, it is not very accessible or well marketed. As a Melbourne paddler I often wonder why port Phillip bay is not used much by our 4 million residents. There are more jet skiers than sea kayakers. I truly believe we need to market our passion more, make it more accessible, or else we face a reality where it becomes a fringe novelty and then there will be no market for local designers/builders to market to.

Mac50L
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Mac50L » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:14 pm

Camanche73 wrote:I often wonder why port Phillip bay is not used much by our 4 million residents.

I see one or two paddlers out there when in Melbourne but it isn't the most exciting of places to paddle. Our outer coast line has masses of caves, tunnels and reefs. Our habour (10+ miles long) has islands, one with a set of 3 caves, lots of little bays, hidden beaches and all of that in sheltered waters. Another long harbour the other side of the Peninsula, same length, also has tunnels, caves and hidden beaches. What we don't have is warm water. On the other hand paddling throughout the year is quite practical.

As for age, the kids want speed, those a bit older are bringing up a family and the older ones have the time and money to actually do things. Hence the age distribution.

Camanche73
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Re: Cheap imports

Postby Camanche73 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:13 pm

I disagree with the notion that young people want 'speed'. I'm in my early 30's so not sure if that makes me young or not. But the young people I know want a sport that challenges them, pushes their boundaries, and provides plenty of scope to develop. Paddling in sheltered water does not do that, but paddling surf, swell, rolling sessions or throwing up a sail in 25knt winds does. Look at YouTube clips like Neptunes Rangers. This is the great aspect about our sport which, in my opinion, is not focussed on in Oz. New boats like Tiderace excite, P&H hammer etc. are designed for this play type aspect where sea kayaking is no longer just about goIng from a-b. And if we want sea kayaking to survive, it is an aspect of the sport that needs to be improved. Clubs seem to focus on calm weather paddling and multi day tours. But I think to grow this great sport more Focus on the 'playing in the sea' type paddling is needed.


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